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Replica guns seized from collector
12:40pm Friday 19th October 2007
Comments (114) Have your say »
By Daniel Knowles »
Armed police swooped on the flat of a 54-year-old replica pistol collector in Battersea.
They seized 17 replica guns but police admit the man posed no threat to the community.
Wandsworth crime squad Inspector Matt Phelps said police had raided the flat about 10.20am on October 10 after a tip-off from the public.
"This action was taken to pro-actively reduce the threat of firearm incidents in the borough and to prevent any possible tragic consequences should they have made their way into the wrong hands," Insp Phelps said after the weapons had been handed over.
"Most imitation weapons are exact copies of the real thing and this places armed officers in the almost impossible position of having to make an instant judgment on whether a gun is real or not.
"I would like to thank the local residents who had the foresight to bring this collection to our attention, and the owner for his full co-operation."
Police said local residents had raised concerns that the man had a large number of replica firearms and ammunition on display in his home.
It turned out the 54-year-old had been collecting the gun memorabilia over 20 years and had built up an extensive collection.
Specialist CO19 firearms officers found 17 of the guns were exact replicas and could be converted to fire.
The Met said in a statement that "although there was no concern that the owner of the collection posed a threat himself, the firearms that had been identified by officers as susceptible to conversion were retained as a precautionary measure" and will be destroyed.
Your Say YourLocal Guardian
Dennis, The American Colonies says...
7:26am Sat 20 Oct 07
Just you wait! The next raid will be on the offices of This Is Local London for having a photograph of replica firearms.
M. O'Reilly, usa says...
1:12pm Sat 20 Oct 07
This is why we kicked you out of our country-insane oppression sans logic. Maybe you can come back when he's 74 and bag another 20...
Peter, says...
5:30pm Sat 20 Oct 07
You poor sorry b@stards. What has happened to you? Your grandfathers ran an Empire, and here you all are cowering at plastic, fake, guns.
The only good aspect is that I've been able to buy three of the very fine Enfield rifles you are all suddenly scared of.
The only good aspect is that I've been able to buy three of the very fine Enfield rifles you are all suddenly scared of.
yog-sothoth, says...
5:45pm Sat 20 Oct 07
It's hard to believe this is the same nation which stood alone to defy the might and malice of the Wehrmacht which had just taken all of Europe. Your forebears are turning over in their graves. You have become a nation of grovelers. When you become Dhimmis you will deserve it.
Steve, USA says...
6:33pm Sat 20 Oct 07
You people are pathetic if you put up with this crap
Greg Scott, New York says...
6:47pm Sat 20 Oct 07
While your rights are being violated you do nothing. In 5 years your nation will cease to exist. You have placed your security in the hands of others what do you think the end result is? Civil war. Remember humanity did just fine with rock and clubs for tens of thousands of years if the government keeps pushing its all over.
Rob A., Standish, Maine, USA says...
4:06am Sun 21 Oct 07
Winston Churchill would be so ashamed.
Mopar, says...
2:32pm Sun 21 Oct 07
Wow!
Just wow.
Just wow.
Terry, says...
3:50pm Sun 21 Oct 07
1984 has arrived - 23 years late but here never-the-less. The UK, where the police rely on informers to keep the subjects "safe", the police laud the dobbers and ubiquitous CCTV keeps a 'benevolent' eye on the serfs. The country that gave the world the notion of personal freedom is itself losing it in the name of safety.
Fred, townsville says...
1:49am Mon 22 Oct 07
Sad isn't, replica toy guns, the police should have a look at them selves, remember the innocent fellow who was on the train shot because he looked suspicious, no one was charged.
Croyboy, says...
8:43am Mon 22 Oct 07
Great job, plods!
Now perhaps you can confiscate real guns from real criminals.
Oh, by the way: "Armed police swooped on the flat..."
Why armed? Were you going to shoot him seven times in the head if he resisted your taking his legally-held collection?
Now perhaps you can confiscate real guns from real criminals.
Oh, by the way: "Armed police swooped on the flat..."
Why armed? Were you going to shoot him seven times in the head if he resisted your taking his legally-held collection?
Peter, Amsterdam says...
9:53am Mon 22 Oct 07
Hey people, this is nothing.
Prepare yourselves cos the New World Order is coming to the UK soon.
Prepare yourselves cos the New World Order is coming to the UK soon.
Chris in Florida, says...
9:56am Mon 22 Oct 07
When the Muslims take over your country then all your enemies will have AK47's. The people need to rise up now before it's too late. Shame to see such a powerful country turn into victims.
Jim, Australia says...
10:00am Mon 22 Oct 07
You poor bloody Poms,
No wonder you all want to migrate to other countries. History will condemn the generation that allowed this to happen. To think that 60 years ago the Union Jack was a symbol of liberty from oppression in Europes darkest days. You people should be marching in the streets in protest or are you all too scared??
No wonder you all want to migrate to other countries. History will condemn the generation that allowed this to happen. To think that 60 years ago the Union Jack was a symbol of liberty from oppression in Europes darkest days. You people should be marching in the streets in protest or are you all too scared??
Great Britain, ENGLAND says...
1:02pm Mon 22 Oct 07
American's offering opinions on the state of our country... Absolutely laughable..
Rocketman, Indiana says...
3:58pm Mon 22 Oct 07
Judging from the almost total lack of civil liberties in England nowadays it seems to me that a American style Libertarian Party is desperately needed.
KZ, England says...
4:02pm Mon 22 Oct 07
"lack of civil liberties in England.."
Abundant in the states are they? Shall we ask the Jena 6 that question?
Abundant in the states are they? Shall we ask the Jena 6 that question?
Jason, California says...
8:10pm Mon 22 Oct 07
Yes, the American style Libertarian Party is desperately needed in the USA too.
Is that supposed to disprove your need for it?
Is that supposed to disprove your need for it?
Alan, St Alburn says...
9:27pm Mon 22 Oct 07
When I read this my hart goes out to all those who died for no reason in the world wars, both sides, this is what we fought against, other fought to keep, a state that decides you MIGHT be harmful and takes action. If this is the trend I hope I can use the same laws to have many drivers on our roads arrested and their cars confiscated and destroyed, as many of them are potential accidents waiting to happen and may potentially harm people.
How cry the beloved country
How cry the beloved country
Rudi, New Brunswick, Canada says...
9:48pm Mon 22 Oct 07
I think I have seen this movie before, something about total government control and lack of civil liberties.
Charles F., says...
11:19pm Mon 22 Oct 07
England has turned into a nation of sissies and wankers.
CCTV cameras, wogs as thick as fleas on a dogs ****, crime running rampant. But by God, you've still got television, so it's all ok with you.
CCTV cameras, wogs as thick as fleas on a dogs ****, crime running rampant. But by God, you've still got television, so it's all ok with you.
Keith, Pennsylvania says...
6:05am Tue 23 Oct 07
What happened to you Brits?! Both Sir Winston Churchill and Sir Bernard Montgomery, who were proud, brave, and honorable, must be crying above in Heaven after seeing that you folks have reduced yourselves to a bunch of cowards after all of these years. It's disgusting that you folks are now afraid of toy guns. Are you afraid of your own shadows as well? It's no wonder that the Muslims, especially the radicals, are having such an easy time taking over your country. Those radical Muslims won't need to fire a shot from their weapons when they can simply say "Boo!" and you'll run away from them and hide underneath your beds. You people today make the French look very brave.
First of all, you Brits need to get some common sense by getting rid of these stupid laws. Criminals don't obey laws in the first place. After that, you had better be brave, just like your proud ancestors, and take back your country if you still want it to be known as England and not Anglistan.
First of all, you Brits need to get some common sense by getting rid of these stupid laws. Criminals don't obey laws in the first place. After that, you had better be brave, just like your proud ancestors, and take back your country if you still want it to be known as England and not Anglistan.
Peter, Amsterdam says...
7:58am Tue 23 Oct 07
Britain has become a DISGUSTING country! What more can I say.
You lot are the laughing stock of the world.
You lot are the laughing stock of the world.
KZ, England says...
9:50am Tue 23 Oct 07
Jason wrote:No not at all, its suppose point out that people in glass houses should not be throwing stones..
Yes, the American style Libertarian Party is desperately needed in the USA too. Is that supposed to disprove your need for it?
A Passer By, London says...
10:01am Tue 23 Oct 07
The Police have done a good thing here. Unfortunately we live in a society where people take what others have got... These guns could be converted, people in the neighbourhood knew about them, so all it would take is for a gang to break in, take them and then convert them.. The results would have been a lot worse than they stand at the moment and then everyone would have been in uproar about how the police should have done something.
We can be called all names under the sun but it still stands that heaven forbid we should become like America in any way shape or form!!
We can be called all names under the sun but it still stands that heaven forbid we should become like America in any way shape or form!!
Steve, U.S.A. says...
1:34pm Tue 23 Oct 07
American's offering opinions on the state of our country... Absolutely laughable..
Armed Police taking toy guns from old man...Now that's absolutely laughable.
I didn't know you Brits were so scared of old men with toy guns. Now you are scared of Americans with snide comments.
I'm not really scared of anything you have to threaten me with, though. You don't even have so much as a toy gun to do it with.
george n, USA says...
1:40pm Tue 23 Oct 07
"We can be called all names under the sun but it still stands that heaven forbid we should become like America in any way shape or form."
Yes, heaven forbid. You are giving everything away you (and many others) fought for for the last 200 years, and you are too blind to see it. Pathetic.
Yes, heaven forbid. You are giving everything away you (and many others) fought for for the last 200 years, and you are too blind to see it. Pathetic.
Great Britain, ENGLAND says...
1:51pm Tue 23 Oct 07
Guns are illegal in this country, whether they take it away from an old man or not makes no difference whatsoever..
Who is scared of 'Americans with snide comments' certainly not me. Your comments do me no harm whatsoever Although considering your answer to anything is to shoot it I probably should be..
"I'm not really scared of anything you have to threaten me with, though"
Now you see? That is where we differ, I don't feel the need to threaten anyone, I do not think I am bigger and better than I am . We don't need guns, real or toy to prove ourselves.
Who is scared of 'Americans with snide comments' certainly not me. Your comments do me no harm whatsoever Although considering your answer to anything is to shoot it I probably should be..
"I'm not really scared of anything you have to threaten me with, though"
Now you see? That is where we differ, I don't feel the need to threaten anyone, I do not think I am bigger and better than I am . We don't need guns, real or toy to prove ourselves.
A Passer By, London says...
1:56pm Tue 23 Oct 07
george n wrote:What precisely are we giving away? "The right to bear arms?" That never existed in this country dear, we've never been that intent on violence..
"We can be called all names under the sun but it still stands that heaven forbid we should become like America in any way shape or form." Yes, heaven forbid. You are giving everything away you (and many others) fought for for the last 200 years, and you are too blind to see it. Pathetic.
Plus, I would rather give everything away than attempt to take what doesn't belong to me...
L. L. Lucullus, St. Louis, MO (USA) says...
2:30pm Tue 23 Oct 07
A Passer By writes "Plus, I would rather give everything away than attempt to take what doesn't belong to me..."
Are you seriously suggesting that the alternative to pacifism is thievery?
If you would not take the property of others without permission, good for you. I would not do so either. If you would permit another to take your property, by force, without resisting, I am sorry for you and sorrier for those who depend upon you. I choose to defend my property, my life, and what rights remain mine in our "enlightened" age. So did your countrymen, until quite recently.
Hic jacet Brittanius - Vir quondam atque futurus.
Are you seriously suggesting that the alternative to pacifism is thievery?
If you would not take the property of others without permission, good for you. I would not do so either. If you would permit another to take your property, by force, without resisting, I am sorry for you and sorrier for those who depend upon you. I choose to defend my property, my life, and what rights remain mine in our "enlightened" age. So did your countrymen, until quite recently.
Hic jacet Brittanius - Vir quondam atque futurus.
Collector, Canada says...
2:52pm Tue 23 Oct 07
I just don't understand why armed police would raid the home of this person and seize a collection. For 20 years this individual was able to legally purchase (assumption) his collection. Then suddenly, arbitrarily this freedom is taken away from him. I have to hope this will never happen to me without cause. I have a similar collection, but I own no fakes. Truth is, regardless of what one ownes, you really can't fight the authorities. I will just have to hope Canada will respect my ownership and not become what it seems much of Europe has become in respect to firearms. I have to admit, that it seems unlikely I will die an old man with my guns still in my possession. It appears most governments have been steadily barring it's civillian populace from firearms ownership. It will probably only ever get worse for all of us.
Keith, USA says...
3:02pm Tue 23 Oct 07
Here's a well-known quote:
"Those who wish to trade their liberty for security shall deserve neither."
"Those who wish to trade their liberty for security shall deserve neither."
A Passer By, London says...
3:34pm Tue 23 Oct 07
L. L. Lucullus wrote:
"If you would permit another to take your property, by force, without resisting, I am sorry for you and sorrier for those who depend upon you. I choose to defend my property, my life, and what rights remain mine in our "enlightened" age. So did your countrymen, until quite recently."
Don't feel sorry for me LL... I did not once say that I would not defend myself or my property but you see, I realise that property and material things can be replaced... When you shoot someone's brains out that life cannot be replaced. If you wish for me to adopt the opinion that this would be acceptable over a car, phone, necklace, watch or whatever, then you are sadly mistaken and it is in fact yourself you should bestow your pity on...
"Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."
"If you would permit another to take your property, by force, without resisting, I am sorry for you and sorrier for those who depend upon you. I choose to defend my property, my life, and what rights remain mine in our "enlightened" age. So did your countrymen, until quite recently."
Don't feel sorry for me LL... I did not once say that I would not defend myself or my property but you see, I realise that property and material things can be replaced... When you shoot someone's brains out that life cannot be replaced. If you wish for me to adopt the opinion that this would be acceptable over a car, phone, necklace, watch or whatever, then you are sadly mistaken and it is in fact yourself you should bestow your pity on...
"Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."
george n, usa says...
3:44pm Tue 23 Oct 07
So your property is the property of anyone who wants it because it is not worth defending...how nice. Some of us have to work very hard for the things we have, and the life we have made for ourselves. Obviously not an issue for you. Common property for anyone "according to their needs.." Hmmm, where have I heard that before?
george n, USA says...
3:53pm Tue 23 Oct 07
No intent on violence!?!?!?! What do you call what you did to the indigenous populations of most of the countries when you were an Empire. Particularly India??? Or maybe several nations in Africa.?? Or maybe those pesky rebels in the colonies???
This whole thing is degrading onto a name calling contest.
The rights I am refering to are things like being secure in your own house from searches and seizures. Taking property away without due cause ("dangerous" toys), and the like.
The Brits helped my folks maintain their freedome when the Nazi's marched into my homeland in Greece. We still are in your debt. I just feel very badly that your society has come to this.
This whole thing is degrading onto a name calling contest.
The rights I am refering to are things like being secure in your own house from searches and seizures. Taking property away without due cause ("dangerous" toys), and the like.
The Brits helped my folks maintain their freedome when the Nazi's marched into my homeland in Greece. We still are in your debt. I just feel very badly that your society has come to this.
A Passer By, London says...
4:35pm Tue 23 Oct 07
George, George, George, I too have to work hard for what I have... However, I still recognise that life is more important than objects regardless of how hard I've had to work to get them. I know what is a necessity in my life and what isnt. Its the adoption of certain attitudes that has lead the world to value things more than people, and very much to blame for the societies we ALL live in.
So George, how do you secure your house from searches and seizures lets say twenty police storm your home, are you going to blow their brains out? If they confiscate your gun because theres a chance it might be illegal, are you going to shoot them? You see, this is why our police are allowed to do such things, in order that we avoid such tragedies as those seen by countries where guns are legal and handed out like sweets.
I know its time to pack up and leave when I can go to a bank to open an account and be given a gun to boot!!
There are many reasons that our society has come to what it has, but please dont think that American influence isnt one of them
'This whole thing is degrading onto a name calling contest.'
Look back over the comments, the name calling started long before I got involved and all because some guns were confiscated in a country where guns are illegal.... Please. I hope to see all your comments again when a drug den is raided, and drugs are confiscated...
So George, how do you secure your house from searches and seizures lets say twenty police storm your home, are you going to blow their brains out? If they confiscate your gun because theres a chance it might be illegal, are you going to shoot them? You see, this is why our police are allowed to do such things, in order that we avoid such tragedies as those seen by countries where guns are legal and handed out like sweets.
I know its time to pack up and leave when I can go to a bank to open an account and be given a gun to boot!!
There are many reasons that our society has come to what it has, but please dont think that American influence isnt one of them
'This whole thing is degrading onto a name calling contest.'
Look back over the comments, the name calling started long before I got involved and all because some guns were confiscated in a country where guns are illegal.... Please. I hope to see all your comments again when a drug den is raided, and drugs are confiscated...
Colin, Vancouver, Canada says...
5:15pm Tue 23 Oct 07
This is not about guns or replicas, this about your rights and the fact that they are slipping away. Did this man break any laws? Clearly from the article he is not a threat and cooperated like a lawful citizen. The reasons given for seizure are weak and would not likely stand the test in a court of law, but I suspect the authorities bet on the fact that most people dont have the money to fight them. Britons make fun of Americans, but at least the Americans take their rights very strongly and resist attempts to limit them. Freedom and rights are hard won and easily lost. Vigilance against abuse by the state even from the best intentions is always required. Britain is sliding down a slope it may not recover from. Benevolent oppression is still oppression. If you dont stand up for others rights, who will stand up for you when they come for yours?
Bloke across the Pond, Florida USA says...
5:18pm Tue 23 Oct 07
"Plus, I would rather give everything away than attempt to take what doesn't belong to me..."
Oh the sorrow - how many British and Americans died in the 20th century to protect your country from a police state.
YOU just did. When armed police can come into your house (raid) and take away toy guns for what MIGHT be done...
Whats next, your steak knives, cricket bats, wait I know, your wankers because they can become hard and MIGHT hurt someone. Hell, its obvious that you aren't using those parts anyways.
Oh the sorrow - how many British and Americans died in the 20th century to protect your country from a police state.
YOU just did. When armed police can come into your house (raid) and take away toy guns for what MIGHT be done...
Whats next, your steak knives, cricket bats, wait I know, your wankers because they can become hard and MIGHT hurt someone. Hell, its obvious that you aren't using those parts anyways.
johny appleseed, USA says...
5:44pm Tue 23 Oct 07
Hey brits,
would you all mind if we shipped our liberals and demoncraps over to you?
They should feel right at home over there where your criminals have more right to your property than you do....
would you all mind if we shipped our liberals and demoncraps over to you?
They should feel right at home over there where your criminals have more right to your property than you do....
Mongo, USA says...
7:47pm Tue 23 Oct 07
Collector wrote:
I just don't understand why armed police would raid the home of this person and seize a collection. For 20 years this individual was able to legally purchase (assumption) his collection. Then suddenly, arbitrarily this freedom is taken away from him. I have to hope this will never happen to me without cause. I have a similar collection, but I own no fakes. Truth is, regardless of what one ownes, you really can't fight the authorities. I will just have to hope Canada will respect my ownership and not become what it seems much of Europe has become in respect to firearms. I have to admit, that it seems unlikely I will die an old man with my guns still in my possession. It appears most governments have been steadily barring it's civillian populace from firearms ownership. It will probably only ever get worse for all of us.
Truth is, regardless of what one ownes, you really can't fight the authorities. I will just have to hope Canada will respect my ownership and not become what it seems much of Europe has become in respect to firearms.
You had best give up your weapons now, with your attitude. Here is a quote from Samuel Adams, in a speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
So much for the authorities...
Keith, USA says...
8:27pm Tue 23 Oct 07
johny appleseed wrote:That's not a bad idea at all! They can have our liberals and demoncraps while England can give us their conservatives and anyone else who wants to have some real freedoms. It seems like a fair trade to me.
Hey brits, would you all mind if we shipped our liberals and demoncraps over to you? They should feel right at home over there where your criminals have more right to your property than you do....
BIG BROTHER, Airstrip One says...
7:18am Wed 24 Oct 07
Repeat after me, Britain.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Steve, U.S.A. says...
1:34pm Wed 24 Oct 07
I wonder why it is that people in other nations equate handguns with violence? I have carried a handgun on my side for five years, and I've never had the inclination to randomly commit violent acts. It has become a comfort knowing that I am trusted as a citizen to protect my own life and the lives of my family.
I think it is SHAMEFUL that there are people out there who actually BRAG ABOUT the superiority of their society in not needing guns. HOW ARROGANT!
Especially since it is so shameful that you insist that another human being (police officer)risk their lives to protect something you are unwilling to protect yourself.
You Brits have sadly given up the CIVIL RIGHT to protect yourself.....FOR ALL TIME! Let's see if your superior society will ever see fit to return it to you. Unfotunately, you have willingly given up the means to fight for any other right they now want to remove. Of course now, you no longer have the MEANS to fight, not to mention the WILL to do so.
And you're proud of that?
I think it is SHAMEFUL that there are people out there who actually BRAG ABOUT the superiority of their society in not needing guns. HOW ARROGANT!
Especially since it is so shameful that you insist that another human being (police officer)risk their lives to protect something you are unwilling to protect yourself.
You Brits have sadly given up the CIVIL RIGHT to protect yourself.....FOR ALL TIME! Let's see if your superior society will ever see fit to return it to you. Unfotunately, you have willingly given up the means to fight for any other right they now want to remove. Of course now, you no longer have the MEANS to fight, not to mention the WILL to do so.
And you're proud of that?
David, Sunny Florida, USA says...
2:22pm Wed 24 Oct 07
A man that takes your gold chain today, will take your daughter's gold chain tomorrow, or your Mother's gold chain. He'll go on, taking whatever he wants, whenever he wants. He'll take lives, he'll brutalize innocents, and he'll do so with pleasure. He'll do so until he's stopped.
If it takes a bullet to the brainpan to stop him from hurting my daughter, or anyone I kow, the so be it. The wages of sin is death. This is my justification for being prepared to defend myself, and any of my loved ones, with whatever force I can muster.
What's your justification for not doing so?
If it takes a bullet to the brainpan to stop him from hurting my daughter, or anyone I kow, the so be it. The wages of sin is death. This is my justification for being prepared to defend myself, and any of my loved ones, with whatever force I can muster.
What's your justification for not doing so?
Mark, Missouri, USA says...
3:30pm Wed 24 Oct 07
In Missouri USA we are a "free people", who's rights began in English Common law that you all invented. The difference here is that we live what we believe. I am free to carry a loaded firearm on my person or in my vehicle at will, have as many guns as I want to collect, and use them to defend myself against intruders, robbers, car-jackers and those that would do me harm without fear of prosecution.
What a wonderful place I live! Too bad for you! I won't be visiting there for certain!
What a wonderful place I live! Too bad for you! I won't be visiting there for certain!
Great Britain, ENGLAND says...
3:38pm Wed 24 Oct 07
"I think it is SHAMEFUL that there are people out there who actually BRAG ABOUT the superiority of their society in not needing guns. HOW ARROGANT!" Funny you should say that since quite a few of the USA comments here are alluding to the fact that the USA is superior to Britain. In fact, in one of your earlier comments, didn't you call us 'pathetic'???
But I think what is both SHAMEFUL and ARROGANT is trying to justify carrying and using a weapon that is DESIGNED to KILL and cause BLOODSHED..
In this country, people who go round shooting others go to PRISON. Carrying a gun is not seen as the norm.
Its not about the superiority of our Society.. Not at all.. Its about the individuals understanding of what is acceptable and what isn't.... There are two types of people in British Society, those that carry guns and those that don't. There is uproar here at the moment about the ones who choose to carry them because they are stripping people of lives based on the fact that the gun carrier thinks they deserve it.. This can be because someone asks you to put a cigarette out, looked at you the wrong way, or stepped on your foot
You Brits have sadly given up the CIVIL RIGHT to protect yourself...FOR ALL TIME! Let's see if your superior society will ever see fit to return it to you. Worry about your own society Steve, it needs it. Leave the worrying about ours to us.
The arrogance also lies in all the comments calling Brits names You are all logging on to a news website for a different country just to throw insults because we dont do things as you do Odd that. I wouldnt mind if you lived in a perfect society, but you dont. Nowhere near. As someone above mentioned. People who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones..
David...
"The wagers of sin is death"
David, you need to pick up a bible and find out what that really means.... It quite seems that you are suggesting that you are not a sinner.. NEWSFLASH. You are.
But I think what is both SHAMEFUL and ARROGANT is trying to justify carrying and using a weapon that is DESIGNED to KILL and cause BLOODSHED..
In this country, people who go round shooting others go to PRISON. Carrying a gun is not seen as the norm.
Its not about the superiority of our Society.. Not at all.. Its about the individuals understanding of what is acceptable and what isn't.... There are two types of people in British Society, those that carry guns and those that don't. There is uproar here at the moment about the ones who choose to carry them because they are stripping people of lives based on the fact that the gun carrier thinks they deserve it.. This can be because someone asks you to put a cigarette out, looked at you the wrong way, or stepped on your foot
You Brits have sadly given up the CIVIL RIGHT to protect yourself...FOR ALL TIME! Let's see if your superior society will ever see fit to return it to you. Worry about your own society Steve, it needs it. Leave the worrying about ours to us.
The arrogance also lies in all the comments calling Brits names You are all logging on to a news website for a different country just to throw insults because we dont do things as you do Odd that. I wouldnt mind if you lived in a perfect society, but you dont. Nowhere near. As someone above mentioned. People who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones..
David...
"The wagers of sin is death"
David, you need to pick up a bible and find out what that really means.... It quite seems that you are suggesting that you are not a sinner.. NEWSFLASH. You are.
Steve, U.S.A. says...
4:45pm Wed 24 Oct 07
First let me apologize for seeming to mock your society. I, as an American, am thankful for having your country as close allies. I would never think of the British people in a derogatory manner, so if I seem to come off as insulting, I'm truly sorry.
But, having said that, I do think there's a bit of arrogance in the attitude that you are morally better by not needing guns. I'm sure there are more than a few people in your country who's lives could have been saved by having had the capability of defending themselves.
The term pathetic I used refers to the belief that by passing a law, you somehow make everyone safer. How naive. I guess all the criminals will just stop being criminals because it's against the law.
I guess you'll just have to rely on others to protect you from now on because you have given up the right to do it yourself.
But, having said that, I do think there's a bit of arrogance in the attitude that you are morally better by not needing guns. I'm sure there are more than a few people in your country who's lives could have been saved by having had the capability of defending themselves.
The term pathetic I used refers to the belief that by passing a law, you somehow make everyone safer. How naive. I guess all the criminals will just stop being criminals because it's against the law.
I guess you'll just have to rely on others to protect you from now on because you have given up the right to do it yourself.
Great Britain, England says...
7:04pm Wed 24 Oct 07
Steve, I am in no way suggesting that we are morally superior because we do not carry guns. If any of my comments lead you to believe that then I too apologise. That is not the intention; I am simply defending my country against a barrage of insults merely because we do not have the same laws as you do in America.
Im sure there are more than a few people in your country whos lives could have been saved by having had the capability of defending themselves. Im quite sure you are right too, however I know that I am right in saying that they wouldnt need to if there were no guns in the hands of those capable of using it for gain or retribution or just plain murder. Plus the fact that there have been many cases where one person has shot someone dead, his friend then goes and shoots the shooter, then his friend, and his, and so on and so on, all under the proviso of somehow being 'disrespected.' So many lives gone (untold innocents too) because people have in their hands a gun. All of that could have been avoided if no one shot anyone in the first place. Lives are being lost on the streets of Britain because people believe they have the right to take a life because they have a gun and that makes them both superior and invincible. Im not saying that is the case in America, Im talking about here. I understand that in America guns have been legal for a very very long time. Thats not the case here. They are relatively new to us and they are causing untold grief to mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children and friends. Not acceptable. Our laws state that guns are illegal. Thats it. That does not make us superior and nor does it make us inferior. Just different. We do not believe that by passing a law everyone will be safe. That would be rather naïve. However, laws are there to protect people, just as, I assume they are in America. Do you suggest we do away with laws because they do not work? Are you suggesting once the laws have gone, we should arm everyone and let them do it themselves? It would never work. Relying on others to protect us. Hmm. That is what the police force was intended for, is it not? Otherwise, what on earth is the point of having a police force? British people will defend themselves to the best of their ability and within the law, otherwise, we run the risk of falling foul of it and ending up in prison ourselves. But let us also not forget that one of the very first laws on EARTH was thou shall not kill.
As I said the moral superiority comes into play when people call us names because our police force are doing their jobs. Guns are illegal, therefore they will try to do their job in attempting to take them off the streets. We have never given up the right to protect ourselves, we still can and we still do, but we stay within the law, reasonable force. Guns have never been legal here. The way you are talking its as if they were at one point and we have given up that right. Not the case at all. The problems that guns cause us (Britain) today gives credence to the fact that they are illegal and should/will remain so.
Steve, its time for me to bow out, Ive explained/defended as much as I can. I can only suggest that we should agree to disagree, you are not my enemy and I dont wish to make you one. I hope you have a pleasant evening/day (not sure what time it is where you are) and I sincerely hope that you never ever need to use your gun Take care.
Im sure there are more than a few people in your country whos lives could have been saved by having had the capability of defending themselves. Im quite sure you are right too, however I know that I am right in saying that they wouldnt need to if there were no guns in the hands of those capable of using it for gain or retribution or just plain murder. Plus the fact that there have been many cases where one person has shot someone dead, his friend then goes and shoots the shooter, then his friend, and his, and so on and so on, all under the proviso of somehow being 'disrespected.' So many lives gone (untold innocents too) because people have in their hands a gun. All of that could have been avoided if no one shot anyone in the first place. Lives are being lost on the streets of Britain because people believe they have the right to take a life because they have a gun and that makes them both superior and invincible. Im not saying that is the case in America, Im talking about here. I understand that in America guns have been legal for a very very long time. Thats not the case here. They are relatively new to us and they are causing untold grief to mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children and friends. Not acceptable. Our laws state that guns are illegal. Thats it. That does not make us superior and nor does it make us inferior. Just different. We do not believe that by passing a law everyone will be safe. That would be rather naïve. However, laws are there to protect people, just as, I assume they are in America. Do you suggest we do away with laws because they do not work? Are you suggesting once the laws have gone, we should arm everyone and let them do it themselves? It would never work. Relying on others to protect us. Hmm. That is what the police force was intended for, is it not? Otherwise, what on earth is the point of having a police force? British people will defend themselves to the best of their ability and within the law, otherwise, we run the risk of falling foul of it and ending up in prison ourselves. But let us also not forget that one of the very first laws on EARTH was thou shall not kill.
As I said the moral superiority comes into play when people call us names because our police force are doing their jobs. Guns are illegal, therefore they will try to do their job in attempting to take them off the streets. We have never given up the right to protect ourselves, we still can and we still do, but we stay within the law, reasonable force. Guns have never been legal here. The way you are talking its as if they were at one point and we have given up that right. Not the case at all. The problems that guns cause us (Britain) today gives credence to the fact that they are illegal and should/will remain so.
Steve, its time for me to bow out, Ive explained/defended as much as I can. I can only suggest that we should agree to disagree, you are not my enemy and I dont wish to make you one. I hope you have a pleasant evening/day (not sure what time it is where you are) and I sincerely hope that you never ever need to use your gun Take care.
Steve, U.S.A. says...
10:43pm Wed 24 Oct 07
Well said. Mutual regards for a pleasant morning/afternoon/ev
ening.
ening.
TCK, says...
12:01am Thu 25 Oct 07
What precisely are we giving away? "The right to bear arms?" That never existed in this country dear , we've never been that intent on violence ..
Speaking as a 4th generation Irish-American, I'd like to kindly inform you go go f*** yourself. Then, I'd suggest re-reading you're history books, starting with the Blackstone Commentaries.
To the above; the police WERE NEVER intended to replace the civic duty everyone man has to protect himself, his family, and his community, theres a reason the police were originally unarmed. Furthermore, both in the US, and in Britain, the government has abdicted itself from all responsibly for protecting the individual, what gives them the right to say you can't protect yourself?
Bloke across the Pond, Florida USA says...
5:19am Thu 25 Oct 07
Im sure there are more than a few people in your country whos lives could have been saved by having had the capability of defending themselves. Im quite sure you are right too, however I know that I am right in saying that they wouldnt need to if there were no guns in the hands of those capable of using it for gain or retribution or just plain murder.
And just how do you plan to take all the guns away from the criminals? We know how you are doing it to the honest citizens. What is the great master plan to rid the British Isles of firearms and to prevent their re-introduction into your country? Do you think that a law that says that you can't have a gun will stop a criminal from getting one?
Here in Florida as long as you are a law abiding citizen and you have no record of felony convictions or have a restraining order against you for domestic abuse you can most probably get a firearm legally - but if you use it to commit a crime - Show the weapon and its ten years. Use the weapon and its twenty years. Hurt of kill someone with it and its twenty-five to life - if you don't get the needle.
Unless you can go back in time and PREVENT the invention of gunpowder and firearms, they will always be a part of society. Don't forget, that before guns and gunpowder, sticks and rocks were used to commit murder and mayhem long before there were even knives.
You are going about this all wrong. You need to remove the 'want' to do harm from people, not the 'how'. And until you can do that, the criminals in society will always prey on the civilized.
I can assure you that it will be a cold day in hell before my government takes my weapons from me without cause or justification. Me and about 100,000 million others.
Incidently, just for statistical purposes, police officers commit more unjustified killings than licensed gun holders in this country. So by your standards, we should de-arm our police officers and just hope for the best.
A Passer By, London says...
11:05am Thu 25 Oct 07
TCK wrote:And I suggest you acquire some manners and forgo the foul mouthed insults....
What precisely are we giving away? "The right to bear arms?" That never existed in this country dear , we've never been that intent on violence ..Speaking as a 4th generation Irish-American, I'd like to kindly inform you go go f*** yourself. Then, I'd suggest re-reading you're history books, starting with the Blackstone Commentaries. To the above; the police WERE NEVER intended to replace the civic duty everyone man has to protect himself, his family, and his community, theres a reason the police were originally unarmed. Furthermore, both in the US, and in Britain, the government has abdicted itself from all responsibly for protecting the individual, what gives them the right to say you can't protect yourself?
The Blackstone Commentaries.. Do you mean? "The influential 18th century treatise on the common law of England by Sir William Blackstone.."
It may surprise you to know that I am not over 400 years old...
I trust you are not suggesting that I am to be held responsible for the decisions and actions of the British forefathers, because if you are, boy do you have some amendments to make too.... My comment referred to now, our time.
And who said anything about the Police replacing civic duty?? No one on this site has.. The fact remains, even on your police cars it states 'to protect and serve.' That is their job despite our 'civil duties.' Most of our police are still unarmed, there are only one section (SO19) who are our armed response...
No one has told us we can't protect ourselves, as Great Britain said, we can and we do, within OUR law, and within reasonable force. Our law does not permit us to blow someone's brains out because they try to steal our car...
BarnacleBob, Sadly, England says...
1:46pm Thu 25 Oct 07
This is getting beyond a joke, I'm scared, genuinely scared. For my children, what kind of country am I leaving them in......
Jim, says...
5:58am Sat 20 Oct 07
There was no discussion of charging him, so I guessing it's the latter.
How does anyone tolerate this?